In this podcast episode, John Maher hosts Eddie Yaracz from Revise and Brian Sadler from Solaris Renewables to explore the advantages of ductless mini-split systems and solar panels. They discuss how ductless systems work, their environmental benefits, and cost savings. Eddie highlights the MassSave program’s rebates and 0% loan options, making these energy-efficient solutions more accessible. Brian shares his personal experience with ductless systems and solar integration, emphasizing the importance of customized home energy solutions. They also cover how solar power can complement ductless systems, enhancing overall home efficiency and savings.
John Maher: Hi, I am John Maher and I’m here today with Brian Sadler, Vice President at Solaris Renewables. A Solar Company in Massachusetts, providing premium solar and storage technologies with exceptional customer service into designing, installing, and servicing solar systems in Massachusetts, Southern New Hampshire and Maine. Welcome, Brian.
Brian Sadler: Hi, John. Appreciate you having us in today.
John: Sure. And then our special guest today is Eddie Yaracz, the home energy manager and HVAC sales manager with Revise. Welcome, Eddie.
Eddie Yaracz: Thanks, John. Appreciate you having me on.
How Do Ductless Mini-Split Systems Work?
John: Sure. So Eddie, in our last episode we talked a little bit about Revise and your partnership with Solaris Renewables. And a little bit about working with the MassSave program and getting a massive energy assessment, and also doing installation and air sealing in a home. Today we want to talk a little bit more about ductless mini-splits and how that fits in with your energy assessments and saving energy in your home. Tell me a little bit about how ductless mini-splits work and why homeowners should maybe consider replacing their existing heating system with a ductless system.
Eddie: Sure. So ductless mini-splits and any type of heat pump system really taps into the evaporation cycle process. Now, that can get very complicated and it’s confusing to explain for most people. But if you think of the way your fridge works where it moves heat from the inside of the fridge to outside the fridge, a heat pump or ductless mini-split works the exact same way.
The only difference is that the ductless mini-split can not only move the heat out of the fridge to the back, but it can also spin in reverse and move heat in. And so that’s how they work throughout your home, there’s a piece of equipment outside, a condenser. There’s a piece of equipment inside, maybe a ducted unit, maybe the ductless head which is the focus. And what happens is they send a fluid through and that fluid absorbs heat outside, then releases it and blows it off inside. And then absorbs it outside and then releases it and blows it off inside.
Even when it’s 30 degrees, 10 degrees, zero degrees outside, it can absorb some of the heat from the air there. So those are a great way that they can move that in. And then the summertime, it’s amazing they can actually do the cooling for you as well by just switching it into reverse and blowing cold air inside the home instead of hot air. So, that’s more or less how the ductless mini-splits work overall.
As far as why customers and homeowners should move to them, there’s a couple of big reasons. One, it runs on electricity because you’re just circulating fluid and running a couple pumps in there to evaporate and condense the actual fluid that’s in place. So first off being electric, it is extremely environmentally friendly. There’s no fossil fuels that are burning at your home, which means that we can use renewable sources elsewhere at power plants or your own solar right here in your house to tap into those and feed those systems.
So, one of the greenest or if not the greenest way to go about heating and cooling your home. Another reason to do these is that you often have multiple zones or better control with a ductless mini-split because it’s localized at the head on the wall. So, you can set that up to 75 degrees. And then when your wife is in the bedroom and she hates the heat and wants it nice and cool at night, you can turn it down to 68 and that one can be at 68 while the living room can be at 74. Or vice versa, the kitchen can be a lot cooler than say the bedroom. So very nice to be able to have that individual control as long as they’re on the same heat setting. And then another big reason that we often talk about these for customers’ homes today here in Massachusetts is because with MassSave you have a whole home rebate of $10,000 and a 0% loan to help you tap into those systems.
So, essentially instead of putting or replacing your old oil furnace with a new oil furnace and spending thousands of dollars with zero rebates, very high cost to run, you can instead use a ductless mini-split system. You can get central AC out of it built in. You can get a $10,000 rebate to convert the whole home. You can finance the project interest free, you can do something good for the environment and it’s a heck of a lot cheaper than oil to run day in and day out. So, really some great reasons to go with any type of heat pump or ductless mini-split system.
Brian: Yeah. The ductless systems are super flexible in their applications, so talked a lot about the whole home replacement, replacing your oil system, gas system or maybe even wood or pallet or supplementing them as well. So some cases, we have a lot of folks that are doing addition for instance or even large additions in a lot of cases. And the cost or the complexity in running ducted or heating pipes out to that section is sometimes not only expensive but tricky in a construction application as well, where the heat pumps can be applicable to each area, kind of like you were saying with zone.
So, now you’re just creating another zone or multiple zones as well. So, there’s tons of flexibility. I know for us, we have a slab ranch, we don’t have a basement and then our attic is very tight. So, when we’re looking at upgrading or changing our heating system, and we didn’t have any cooling system, we have casement and on windows, so we had a rigged up portable AC unit, which I jigsawed out some plexiglass and sealed it into a window which was a solution, which frankly didn’t work well.
And now, we have not only a new super-efficient heating system, now we get air conditioning out of the deal as well, which was something we never had before. And frankly it’s very dreamy.
Eddie: I got to ask, did you use those the Father’s Day’s toolkit to install that plexiglass because that sounds like a father special there?
Brian: Yes, but I also used to be a carpenter and builder in a former life. So I have some of those skills and tools, but still it was always on the spot. It was what I had in the garage and with the tools that I had and it was hot and we got it going, day one.
Eddie: It’s all that counts.
Brian: But now using the MassSave program and the rebates and I use the 0% heat loan to make it even more accessible for us and be able to take advantage of all those really great benefits, for going with a whole home in our case heat pump system. It was absolute no-brainer. A lot of folks, if you do have access to cash or other financing, that’s super. But MassSave program makes it really accessible and who wouldn’t want a 0% loan to do a home improvement project like that? So, it was easy to deal with. Revise is great. It helps you navigate those pieces as well, which is amazing.
Is Electricity Expensive For Heating a Home?
John: Now Eddie, for a homeowner who maybe isn’t familiar with ductless systems, they might be thinking, geez, I’m going to use electricity to heat my home. I thought that electricity was really expensive. Those old baseboard electric heaters and things like that, whenever I had to put those on in the winter it cost me a ton of money. And then those electric air conditioners that I stick in my window, like Brian was saying, that all of a sudden my electric bill goes way up when I run those in the summer. Why is a ductless system different?
Eddie: So, an electric resistance is a one for one input to outlet. So when you have an electric space here, baseboard, Eden fire looking like thing, they’re all you put in your one kilowatt-hour of electricity, you’re getting out the equivalent amount of heat. Very simple one for one. Heat pumps are normally a three to one ratio or more, especially when it’s like 30s, 40s, what we spend most of our time in the winter, a lot of times you’re going to get a COP performance ratio of the three point something or four point something. So, essentially for every one you’re going to put in, you’re going to get out that three Btus of heat in comparison. So there really is no comparison between electric resistance and heat pump technology. They are night and day different. It could be like gas and oil. And it’s just a matter of the way we talk about them that, that’s just something that education is the only way we’re going to combat that.
As you mentioned, we’re talking about people new to ductless mini-splits. If you’re new to it, it’s worth having an idea of exactly what we’re talking about and who doesn’t love a good template. So ductless mini-split head, it’s like this, you put it right on your wall, typically it goes up higher. It only sticks out about eight or nine inches or so. This is a bigger version that is for very large addition or something like that. Most of them are only about 30, 35 inches across and about 10 or 12 inches high. So that’s where you’re blowing out hot or cold air. It’s got a sensor right in the top of it. And they even have ones that are really nice that actually are floor units as well, and can sit on the floor almost like the old school radiators with a much more new age kind of feel to it. That template’s not as pretty though.
How Do Ductless Mini-Split Systems Look?
John: And Brian, you have a ductless system in your house too. Were you or your family at all concerned about, oh, I don’t really want to put these things on my wall. I don’t know if I like the way that looks. Was that a concern for you and how do you feel now that you’ve had the system for a while?
Brian: Well, in my experience, anything different and new is met with some type of resistance. We deal a lot in our industry. All of a sudden everyone’s concerned about their roof and what solar is going to look like. And I’m always like, when was the last time someone walked into your house and complimented you on your roof? And the answer without exception is zero. Never. No one’s ever complimented me on how beautiful my shingles look.
And very similar here, we’re okay with radiators that are taking up space in every single one of our rooms, be it a steam or a baseboard, or we’re okay with all these vents coming out of our walls, floors and ceilings, or we’re okay with taking up an entire window to stuff an air conditioner in it. But all of a sudden there’s a new unit that goes in the wall and there’s resistance to that.
So I would say yes, at home we had a division there where I’ll say my wife was like, “That takes up space on the wall.” And I was like, “Well, there’s nothing there. And the solution, the benefit to it is X, Y, and Z.” Things that Eddie’s been educating us about. And do we want AC or do we not want AC? Because if we want AC, we’re limited to those options. For us, like Eddie had mentioned this floor units, there’s also ceiling cassettes. And folks, again, for whatever reason gravitate to one of those options. And some folks are like, “Oh, I’d do it if it was the ceiling cassette.” Which that’s a great solution. They’re also sizable pieces that go into your ceiling, which now requires a lot of times framing. So you got to cut the ceiling and do some additional framing up there to set it up to support the unit on the floor.
Some people are more accepting of that because they’re used to a steam radiator or baseboard and things like this. So yes, we did have some resistance at our home, but we moved through that pretty quickly when this is part of our long-term solution. We had solar eight or nine years ago, and with the idea that at some point we’re going to have ductless mini splits to heat and cool the home. And we also at some point we knew we would have EVs or plug-in hybrids and we knew that was our goal as a family to try to leverage our solar system even further to control and generate our own electricity. And then if you, of course you can heat, cool your home and power your vehicles yourself at home, there’s a lot of comfort in that as well. So we got past it pretty quick.
What is the Process for Having a Ductless System Installed?
John: So, Eddie, what’s the process for going ahead and getting ductless installed in a home? Do we start with that MassSave energy assessment and then you give a recommendation and say, yeah, I think that ductless could be a good solution for you, let’s move forward. And then you give an estimate or a cost estimate on what that would be to install?
Eddie: Yeah, so we still recommend starting with the MassSave whole home energy assessment. And the reality is that to get all the rebates, the financing, all the best applicable deals that you do need to have assessment first. You need to qualify for the heat loan, you need to get the paperwork in order and just make sure that your home is going to fit because different programs, again, have different ways of going about it. So we always start with that assessment that gives us a good baseline. If it’s something that is outside of the MassSave program, our advisor will at least talk about it with you. Set expectations. Sometimes it’s a sunroom that is only three season and you want to convert that to four season. Well, in MassSave’s eyes that’s adding to your footprint, it’s increasing it. So that’s not really as helpful for them.
You’re not saving energy, which is their number one goal. So it might not be a good fit for the MassSave program, but it’s definitely something that we would still be looking at and saying, okay, well a one-to-one mini-split is the ideal solution for that. That’s exactly how you make a three season room, four season without breaking the bank. So, in general, we always start with that assessment and then once we do that assessment, we would set you up with one of our HVAC specialists who do a manual J for the home, calculate the heat load loss, talk to you about different options. We never like to go into one home and give you one option. I might go into Brian’s home and he is like, “Okay, yeah, we want to make this three season sunroom. We want to make that four season. I heard the ductless mini-split is the way to go.”
Great, I’ll price that out for you. I’ll give you that quote. I’ll tell you all the best things about it, the good and the bad and give you some relative experience about different ways to do it. But I’m also probably going to look at your existing system too, because if Brian’s telling me that and his existing system is 30 years old or 20 years old, or if he’s having issues with it or if it’s not keeping up or it just doesn’t have AC, it might make more sense for me to treat that one room and do something for the whole home to get those larger rebates and roll it all together. So, we want to know all that data, we want to look there and just give you multiple options. And at the end of the day, if I give you five options and we can eliminate four of them on the spot, that’s good news. Now you’ve made an educated decision for yourself. You’re on the road to the right system and the right solution for you and your home and your goals short term and long term.
Will a Ductless Mini-Split System Save Money?
John: And can a homeowner expect to save money on their energy bills, on their heating and cooling bills over the course of the year by switching over to ductless? I’m sure part of that depends on what type of heating fuel they’re using right now.
Eddie: Yeah, it depends a lot on a lot of different factors to be honest. So first off, if you just had a high efficiency, natural gas boiler, there’s no duct work in the home, you don’t have AC, your high efficiency natural gas, no, a heat pump is not going to save you money. The reality is you just added AC to your home. So of course you’re not going to save money, you added a whole new system. Now they will be close on the heating side, the high efficiency gas is still going to be a little cheaper. Gas is just a cheap fuel, but we’re not talking about 50% cheaper. You’re talking five, 10, maybe 15% cheaper, not much of a difference there. And you’re getting that whole AC system as a benefit, which is often the drive of doing that.
John: Right. And if you were running those window air conditioners during the summer, then you’re going to save money on that.
Eddie: Correct. If you’re talking anything AC, doesn’t really matter what it is, a heat pump is way more efficient than the old window ACs, probably twice as efficient. Even your essential AC systems, you’re talking about 25% more efficient. So you’re pretty much always saving on that AC side. If you’re talking oil, propane, wood stoves, depending where you buy your wood I suppose, electric resistance, all of those you’re going to save on. Oftentimes with oil we’ll save about 30%. With electric resistance, we’ll save about 50%. We try to just be a little bit conservative compared to those heating costs. Of course, when you’re switching fuels, your electric bill goes up and that’s where your oil or your natural gas or your propane all drop off completely, ideally. Now again, the only time that you’re not saving is really when you’re talking about that premium gas, natural gas, high efficiency system. Even like a straight natural gas boiler, if it’s from the 1990s, it might only be 70% efficient.
And so, then it just comes into what’s the efficiency of that gas system and is it a break even or are you paying a little bit more but getting that AC benefit that you didn’t have, or maybe more zones that you didn’t have.
Setting Up Zones with a Mini-Split System
John: Yeah, I was going to say that that’s another factor too, is just the comfort level with the family with being able to zone out each part of your home or each room in your home. And eliminate those issues where you might have a bedroom that’s kind of cold at night, but while you have it too hot in the living room or something like that. You have that adjustability, so you have to factor that into it. Maybe you’re not saving a ton of money over certain fuels or even maybe it’s kind of break even on the gas side of it, but you’re adding that zoning ability and that comfort level that your family’s going to feel.
Eddie: Yeah, what’s most important is really a good design. A poor design doesn’t serve anyone, doesn’t matter if it’s heat pumps, boilers, gas, oil, it doesn’t matter. It’s a poor design. If you get the right design, you’re going to be happier because you’re going to satisfy your comfort. You’re going to keep the cost where you want them to be and you’re going to overall get the best versatility for you in your home.
Brian: Yeah, absolutely. So, if you have most of like we had one zone, our whole house was a zone, and so the boiler cycled the water through the baseboard and now we have every single room is its own zone and we’re able to control. So like you were pointing out earlier, my wife likes it warmer than I do. So if I’m in the office for part of the day, I’m going to turn that to a cooler temperature regardless year-round. Then she might want it in our bedroom, our daughter… And then a location of the south side of the house versus the north side and the kind of communication with the garage and different things that we have at our house, it gives us a ton of control which then yields better comfort for us. And it can be more efficient because it gets to those temperatures easier than other times throughout the year where instead of changing the whole home thermostat, we’re able to focus on each individual room and device.
So, a tremendous, I think attribute of heat pumps and ductless mini-splits there. And then to the point on savings, the gas and oil and all fossil fuels are commodities that are market-based. So gas prices shoot up in the wintertime when we’re all trying to heat our homes with natural gas or with oil, and that is also reflected in the electricity costs. So if you’re able to use heat pumps and yeah, you’re going to spend a little bit more in the winter, your summer’s going to be tremendously cheaper. If you’re comparing to any other AC, it’s like Eddie was talking about so much more efficient
Your cost of electricity will go up, but you’re going to think of the avoided cost of not buying that fuel and that savings there too. And then if you’re like us with the goal with offsetting that with solar, we’re building up credits on our electric bill to offset our winter bills. And now we’re actually further offsetting and getting further savings on our heating and cooling costs by being able to create our own electricity and offset that additional cost. So I think there’s definitely savings to be had for sure, and it’s just a matter of the particulars and design the system that your energy systems across the board, I think is a way to increase and accelerate those savings.
Eddie: Right. And it also is a big difference between if you’re doing that one indoor head for the ductless mini-split to one outside condenser. Versus if you’re doing a ducted system that’s in an attic and now you’ve introduced heat loss through a duct that you didn’t have before. Those are two entirely different systems because one is just the unit itself, but the other one you’re talking about all the duct work and loss and the totality of your cost of adding that system in the home.
So, it really does go case by case and making sure you have the best design. But if you’re looking for the most efficient way to go, it’s always the one-to-one, a single head, a single condenser or as minimal to that or as close to that as you can keep it. And those systems are going to outperform pretty much anything else on the market.
Brian: That’s why our listeners need to contact Revise and Solaris to find out more and get a customized solution for their home.
Eddie: Well, and that’s just that once you add Solaris in, that’s your silver bullet. You put in the solar at that.
Brian: Bingo.
Using Solar Power to Run a Ductless Mini-Split System
John: Yeah, so let’s talk about that a little bit before we go, how does solar fit into this? And when Revise comes in and does that MassSave energy assessment, is switching over to solar power part of those recommendations? And how does solar power fit in with this whole ductless system maybe?
Eddie: Yeah, absolutely. So we do a couple of things, one of the things we’re going to do at every home is we’re going to take a picture of the home from a Google Maps perspective. There’s a few websites that we can use that just show us, okay, what’s the orientation? We look outside, how much shading do we have around the house? How much space do we have on the roof? Can you feasibly tap into this? Because if you’re putting solar on and then you’re going heat pumps, now we’re really starting to talk about that whole home as a system. We always want to reduce your consumption first. We all know that from the age-old recycling, we want to reduce our waste, reduce what we’re using, so we reduce your footprint through insulation. Then we want to go ahead and focus on making sure we have the right types of systems in place, like your mini-splits.
And then the best way to pay for them obviously is by getting solar on your own home. And so, whenever that comes up, we go through every home. We actually talk to the customer and say, “Okay, as you can see, you’re going to get a ton of sun on this roof.” Or “Wow, you must have a sunny deck outside.” At that point, that’s when you should really be looking at solar and trying to capitalize on that, not only to just pay for your electric bills but ultimately to start covering your heating bill as well through ductless mini-splits.
Brian: And Eddie has solar… Before we met obviously, so of course would’ve chosen Solaris, Eddie does have solar in his home as well and the attributes, so he has a good understanding of how it works.
Eddie: Don’t worry though, the guy above me in the company, he got solar through Solaris, so I think you have a good person to speak to it there.
John: Right. Brian, tell us a little bit from your perspective as a solar installer, what do you think about solar and how it fits in with a ductless system in a home? Do you have a lot of customers that are doing both?
Brian: Absolutely. So I think there’re tremendously symbiotic, and if you’re doing one you should absolutely look at the other. And that’s again why we really wanted to work with Revise to offer our customers that whole solution, because customers are asking us every day about heat pumps and HVAC solutions. And how can they be more efficient because consumption is a big thing like Eddie just pointed out.
So, when we’re doing our financial analysis for how solar is going to work for an individual homeowner and their family, they’re telling us a little bit about what’s going on at the home and they’re showing us their electric bill. And we’re saying, “Well, okay, I see these spikes or these valleys.” And you’re asking what type of heating cooling systems they have. We’re talking to them on a very basic terms about that and then being able to diagnose why the numbers are what they are. And we’ll make soft recommendations like, oh, well, it’s probably because of this or it’s because of that. But really Revise are the experts to further diagnose that and provide those solutions.
But if we together with Revise can show that homeowner that A, by adding insulation and air sealing, you’re going to lower your consumption, your heating and cooling costs are going to come down. We know this, all the data shows that. You’re going to be more comfortable and therefore they’re going to use less electricity. Well, now your solar system is more impactful and has more used to you. So then depending on the situation, again, like Eddie’s talked a lot about are we supplementing, are we replacing our heating and cooling system, those pieces. So those all come into play and that’s why we want our customers to talk to Revise to get the expert advice and really diagnose what’s going on in the home so they can find out more. But obviously it’s a huge attribute to work with Revise for us as providing energy solutions and with solar, because now that solar system is going to work better for the homeowner. So it’s absolute no-brainer.
On top of that, we do a lot of energy battery storage systems as well. And the heat loan program can be used for battery storage as well. So customers that are looking at whole home or partial home generator systems, there’s a solution there as well. If you’re looking at solar and you’re just thinking about future-proofing your home or thinking of things coming in the future, time of use, metering for your electric bill that’s coming at some day, or net metering programs which is how you get electricity savings through solar. Those programs ultimately getting watered down or eliminated at some point in the future, then a battery can help you leverage some of that control and security of your home as well. And you can finance it at 0% on a seven-year loan through the MassSave program. And so there’s a lot of different ways that we are able to help our customers by introducing them to Revise and vice versa.
How to Set Up a MassSave Energy Assessment
John: All right. Well, Eddie, how can a homeowner contact Revise and learn more about getting a MassSave energy assessment?
Eddie: So, the two best ways are going one, directly on our website at callrevise.com. And there you can go to the contact us button, put in, we’ll give you a call trying to schedule that home energy assessment which is our first step in the overall process. And take you to all of our partners like Solaris here. Beyond that, the other best method would be the 1 800-885-7283. Option one will take you right to the office. You’ll get Nancy Kerrigan to answer the phone in our recording there, and you’ll have a minute to hear from her before you get transferred to one of our people to schedule the assessment. Again, if you ask for me on anything, they’ll be happy to send you an email or connect you with me as well. I’m the only Eddie in the company, so it should be pretty easy, pretty straightforward to get hold of me if you just have a specific question or you need to talk something through
Brian: The one and only Eddie.
Eddie: Yeah, the one and only one that anyone knows in the company.
John: All right, well, Eddie Yaracz from Revise, thanks again for joining us today.
Eddie: All right, thank you very much. I appreciate, John. And I’ll look for your call for your assessment as well.
John: Sounds good. And as always, Brian Sadler, thanks for joining me as well.
Brian: Thanks, John. I appreciate it.
John: And for more information about Solaris Renewables, you can visit their website at solarisrenewables.com or call 781-270-6555.